Talk:Bob Dylan

Critical Study

Under Legacy, it says "Dylan's lyrics began to receive critical study as early as 1998…"

I think it's safe to say that critical study of his lyrics began roughly 1963. Certainly I recall reading about his lyrics in the 70s, but I wouldn't have been reading that sort of thing in 1965. I'm not entirely sure how to reword that, but 35 years would've been a long time to escape critical attention. I might give the rewording a try.--HughieGRex (talk) 17:55, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

I think by "critical study" it means basically academic papers. It would be interesting to see how soon papers were being written on his lyrics, but I doubt that was as early as 1963.Brianyoumans (talk) 19:25, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Michael Gray published Song & Dance Man: The Art of Bob Dylan in 1972, discussing Dylan's work in the context of the poetry of Browning, Rimbaud, Baudelaire and Eliot. Craig McGregor published Bob Dylan: A Retrospective in 1972, an anthology containing many critical essays about Dylan by Robert Shelton, Nat Hentoff, Ellen Willis, Richard Goldstein and other early practitioners of the art of rock criticism. Anthony Scaduto's Bob Dylan: An Intimate Biography, published in 1971, contains critical discussion of Dylan's work. Mick gold (talk) 08:21, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

HughieGRex Michael Gray never held an academic post but he is widely regarded as an important Dylan critic. Similarly, Greil Marcus has in recent years taught at universities, but when he began to write critical articles about Dylan he was a Rolling Stone journalist. Similarly Nat Hentoff was a New Yorker journalist and Robert Shelton was a New York Times journalist. (He is portrayed in the current biopic A Complete Unknown.) I would argue serious critical studies of Dylan began to be published from 1972 onwards, but by authors without academic titles. Mick gold (talk) 13:57, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

That sounds right. I should have said "academic works", not "academic papers".Brianyoumans (talk) 15:09, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Looking again at the section, I think HughieGRex has a point, and we should add a sentence or two about the works mentioned above, to make clear that Dylan's lyrics were being discussed seriously as early as 1972. Mick gold, you could almost take what you wrote above and put that in. Brianyoumans (talk) 15:23, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Brianyoumans OK. I'll take another look at 1972 edition of Gray's book to remind myself of his critical approach and try to draft a sentence or two. Thanks. Mick gold (talk) 09:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Since no improvement has been made to the first sentence, I've reverted it, because "as early as 1998" surely gives an unsupportable impression. I invite others to improve the verbiage further. HughieGRex (talk) 00:30, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

HughieGRex I have at last obtained a 1972 copy of Gray's Song & Dance Man and have re-written the Legacy section for you and Brianyoumans (& other editors) to discuss. Mick gold (talk) 15:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

That looks excellent. Thanks for moving the article forward! HughieGRex (talk) 18:13, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

wonderfull SPON.de article (in German)

Nice article about a very, very loyal long-term fan in (former Eastern) Germany: https://www.spiegel.de/geschichte/bob-dylan-in-oel-wie-das-gemaelde-aufs-konzert-in-ost-berlin-kam-a-52cdc5fa-eef8-4e9f-bced-379d61a1075a

Adapting the tunes and phrasing of older folk songs

The One I Left: I’ve restored the words "which adapted the tunes and phrasing of older folk songs" to the Lead, referring to "Girl From The North Country" and "A Hard Rain's a-Gonna Fall". I think it’s important that the Lead mentions Dylan first made an impact with these songs (and also "Masters of War", "Blowin’ in the Wind", "With God On Our Side") by marrying new lyrics to traditional melodies and forms. Best, Mick gold (talk) 23:16, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Not sure if that mention is worth of the lead. Seems more appropriate to put in the body of the article.The One I Left (talk) 03:20, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Since the Lead serves as “a summary of the article’s most important contents”, BD’s talent for writing new lyrics to traditional tunes was surely crucial to the early impact he made with "Girl From The North Country", "A Hard Rain's a-Gonna Fall", "Masters of War", "Blowin’ in the Wind", "With God On Our Side" and more. Mick gold (talk) 08:12, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Agree to disagree. I think it's worthy of mention within the article for sure, but mentioning it in the lead seems like puffery.The One I Left (talk) 20:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree with The One I Left. His use of traditional tunes in those early songs is noteworthy, but it seems out of place in the lead. Jameson Nightowl (talk) 05:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Dylan and Johnny Cash

I’ve re-written material about Dylan and Johnny Cash to make it more accurate, including the "Shut Up and Let Him Sing!" letter Cash wrote to Broadside in March 1964. To suggest Cash was responsible for Dylan leaving protest songs behind is surely an overstatement. Dylan expressed dissatisfaction with the constraints of this culture when he made a drunken speech to the Emergency Civil Liberties Committee on December 13, 1963. He called politics "trivial" and said he understood the alienation of Lee Harvey Oswald, who had assassinated President Kennedy only three weeks earlier.

To suggest Cash was the principal reason Dylan played electric guitar at Newport in 1965 is also surely an overstatement. The major Dylan biographers (Sounes, Heylin, Shelton, Wald) suggest Dylan was musically influenced by the British invasion in 1964, particularly The Beatles and The Animals’ version of "House of the Rising Sun" which reached Number One in the USA on September 5, 1964. The Animals had learnt the song from Dylan’s first LP.

In Dylan Goes Electric!, the book on which the film A Complete Unknown is based, Elijah Wald states electric guitars were not unusual at Newport prior to Dylan in 1965. He cites John Lee Hooker, The Chambers Brothers and the Staple Singers. Concerning Cash’s appearance in 1964, Wald writes: “Although Johnny Cash’s appearance in 1964 raised a few eyebrows, the issue was Nashville commercialism, not Luther Perkins’s twangy electric guitar.” (p. 204)

The film A Complete Unknown accurately quotes letters Dylan and Cash exchanged. But the film is a work of fiction. It depicts Cash at Newport in 1965 encouraging Dylan to perform his electric set, and Cash then hands Dylan his guitar so he can deliver an acoustic encore. Director James Mangold has stated: "While their correspondence indicates that Cash regularly encouraged Dylan to ignore naysayers and remain true to his artistic instincts, the scene where an intoxicated Cash convinces Dylan to go through with the set is pure fiction. In fact, according to the line-up, Cash wasn't even at the 1965 festival (or at least, he never played a set at it). Johnny was encouraging Bob not to listen to the potentates of folk music in his letters," Mangold notes. [1] Mick gold (talk) 09:39, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Well done in my opinion Jameson Nightowl (talk) 04:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 February 2025

Just wondering why there is nothing at all about Buddy Holly in this article - seems an extraordinary gap given the abundant evidence that Buddy H was VERY big to Bob D. Is there some sort of systematic decision to shut Buddy H out here? Looks that way ... and I find this quite disturbing. 118.211.57.205 (talk) 13:58, 2 February 2025 (UTC)

I have added Dylan's account of seeing Buddy Holly perform in Duluth on January 31, 1959, quoting from Dylan's Nobel Prize lecture. Mick gold (talk) 20:27, 2 February 2025 (UTC)